046 - Staying Curious Through the Unfolding of Life w/ Ursula Griffiths

What does it mean to live with true self-awareness?

In this Life Is Sound episode, James Mayer sits down with Ursula Griffiths for an intimate conversation exploring curiosity, healing, and how adversity shapes the heart.

Ursula shares her journey with honesty and humour, reflecting on childhood memories, her evolving relationship with her parents, and the landscapes, both inner and outer, she’s travelled in search of presence and meaning. From moving through trauma and the rigours of perfectionism to the gentle power of forgiveness, this episode is an unhurried space for those who value depth.

Find Ursula on Instagram

Our First ever Life Is Sound Retreat at Broughton Sanctuary, 10th October 2026

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Transcript

James Mayer: 0:02

Life is good. So, Ursula, welcome to Life Is Sound. Got a couple of little gifts for you. The first one there is a little usb. It has some guided sound relaxations on which I've created a few months back called the Seven Day Recode. And if you want to tap into it at any point, it's like 10 to 15 minutes a day just to give you that nice reset. So I thought you'd be someone who would appreciate. Oh, I do guided meditations and stuff like that. And then you can take one of the journals as well on the way out and I'll ask you to write a question in it for the next guest at the end. So with that, the last guest wrote a question, so we'll kick off. Okay. And he asked me this question as well, and it was a. It was a great question from Jack Fint. Name one thing you value about yourself that is not connected to what you've done.

Ursula Griffiths: 1:05

Name one thing I value about myself which is not connected to what I've done. Thank you, by the way. That was so unexpected. Okay. What do I value about myself? Oh, that's such a wonderful question. I think I value where to take that. I probably say my curiosity. Yeah. Having a sense of curiosity and an insight into myself and others and into the world around me. Curiosity is really something I've been thinking about a lot recently and it's something I mention quite often at the beginning of my yoga classes, classes about, you know, approaching the practise with a really open sense of curiosity. And not just curiosity, but kind curiosity, Being open just to see whatever is there in the moment. And I feel like that really, really serves me in life. I think it helps me to look at myself in an honest way. And it's. It's not easy. Highly confronting, very challenging. Yeah. And it's. I'm not always greeted with things that I like to see, but being curious to seeing whatever is there. And I think it adds a kind of a level of awe and also playfulness to life. It's kind of like being a child again. And, yeah, I feel actually the older I've got, the more I'm returning to this kind of childlike perception of the world, this way of perceiving the world through a child's eyes, having that kind of childlike curiosity, trying to see things for the first time and in doing so, actually realising how stuck in certain ways of thinking and perceiving that I am. But, yeah, curiosity, it really brings a lot of magic to the world. Yeah. You know, there's the phrase Smell the roses, like take a moment to pause and smell the roses. And yeah, it's something that I'm trying to remind myself to do more often and being then really curious with, like that moment with a flower of how it smells, how it looks, how the petals are formed and yeah, through that then creating this very intimate relationship with the world around me and my internal world. So curiosity. That's

James Mayer: 4:44

a great answer. It just made me think about my son, who's like 18 months now, and watching him discover things for the first time is a real beautiful moment that I try not to disrupt when I'm watching him discover something for the first time. We got in a glass lift the other day and I took him up to the first floor and I could just see his world light up. And then we went back down and we got out and he said, again, don't know where I was supposed to be in this lift, but I took him up to the fourth floor as we got higher. It's a glass lift. So I was like, ooh, because of my fears and things. And I thought, let's not project that onto him because he's having the time of his life. He doesn't know about heights or fear of heights. So it's. Watching just that pure joy and that presence of a child just experiences something for the first time was amazing. And I think curiosity is such a. A powerful thing when you do venture into self, not on one occasion, but continuously. As you probably know, holding space for people in yoga and the other parts of your world that you do massage and I know you've practised Reiki in the past, so I think when you have curiosity of self, it keeps you really curious of other people as well. That's one thing I find when people are showing up to sessions, just really curious about, as they enter, how their energy is. Some people want to share, some people want to speak, some don't. They just want to get to the session, get out of the session. And I'm really curious about what's going on in people's worlds. And I think when you explore into self, that's a great thing that keeps you kind of curious about other people and just those little beautiful moments in the world that we can often miss in everyday life. Something I've been thinking about a lot is we're not here for a long time and we are all alive at the same time. This is the first time we've met today and I think we all think that we've got this storey to like, we're 90100 and we may not. And it's just having that. That gratitude for the smaller things that you might miss. Walking to get a coffee, you might just smell. Smell a bunch of flowers on the side of the street, you know, a nice bush of some sort. And it's. We often miss that because we're so in our heads with everyday life. So I think that's a really powerful answer. What. What would you say has happened on your journey to really propel you into that space of diving into curiosity of self?

Ursula Griffiths: 7:34

Oh, gosh, so many things. Yeah, I would say I've always been quite an inquisitive, deep thinker. I remember as a child I was much more comfortable. In the company of adults, so I would. In family get togethers, all the other kids would be running around playing and I'd want to be in the kitchen earwigging on what the adults were talking about. And yeah, I think there was just from. Yeah, from being a little girl, this real curiosity about the world around me and wanting to know how things worked and, yeah, maybe one of the. One of the kind of first things that initiated that was growing up on my mum's storeys of her travelling around the world, that definitely ignited a lot of curiosity. I just thought it was amazing. She had these thick scrapbooks of all old film camera photos from across the world and to look at those photos, to see these other worlds, so exciting. So I really remember from being a little little girl, knowing that I absolutely wanted to travel the world, which I've been fulfilling over the last four years, and actually did a trip recently with my mum, which was so special. I think when I saw you post that,

James Mayer: 9:23

I straight away thought, wow. And it goes back to the life and time thing of how special it is to have that memory with your mum locked in forever. How was that, knowing that she's inspired that part of your life and now you're getting to do it with her as well. Oh, God. It was just, yeah, so

Ursula Griffiths: 10:53

special to me. I feel so unbelievably lucky to have the relationship with my parents and especially my mum, really, that I do. And, yeah, we've been through so much together and my mum. Oh, no, I feel emotional. My mum really has stood by me every step of the way and, yeah, to share that with her and to. You know, I think also another thing is as an adult, you experience your parents in a different way, or at least I certainly feel like I'm experiencing my parents in a different way. I'm seeing them more as just a human Being rather than with, you know, the, the label of them being my parent. And as I've got older I've understood that they've just been like me, another human trying to figure it out with all of their own baggage, all of their own, you know, crap that they're bringing along with them and they've just been trying their best and you know, kind of taking them off this pedestal of like, wow, you're this amazing superhero person who can do all these things for me or having all of these pressures and expectations that I have placed on them over the years and actually just seeing them more on a human level to level basis with all of their flaws, all of their challenges and yeah, I feel like they're becoming more and more of my friends rather than my parents. And if anything it almost feels like the tables are turning in a way. I feel so lucky that I get to do that, that I get to give back to my parents in that way because they really have given and done so much for me. So yeah, to share that time with my mum and to kind of, you know, to see how hard that she's worked as a mum and how much she's sacrificed over the years to then kind of want to bring her back to where she began, this kind of free spirited woman and not the woman who's kind of laden with all of the household chores and whatever. And to, yeah, to kind of something she said to me, she was like, oh, it's been so lovely. You know, you've really looked after me on this trip and I held a hand everywhere and I dealt with all of the, I was the one holding the passport. But yeah, to be like, it's all right Mom, I've got it and I'm going to figure out where we're going to go and this is what we're going to do. And don't worry, you rest. I'll make sure that X, Y and Z is sorted. So to be able to kind of step up and care for my mom and I met both of my parents in this way. Yeah, that feels really nice. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah.

James Mayer: 14:10

Witnessing your mum's journey from that time, was there anything that inspired you on a spiritual level? If you observe, observe kind of like someone's social media, me observing your Instagram page, it's quite clear to see you are on a personal journey. Did your mum inspire that from travelling or was there anything she also kind of like taught you along the way before you entered your own kind of journey on that side of things?

Ursula Griffiths: 14:38

Yeah, I mean, my mum's kind of been dropping little nuggets of wisdom throughout my whole life, really. I think kind of what really initiated my spiritual journey, which is almost just a funny thing to say because, yeah, I guess I feel like we're all on some kind of spiritual journey, whether we want to recognise that or not. Not everyone will agree with me, but, yeah, I feel like just. I agree

James Mayer: 15:14

completely, being a human. Here we are.

Ursula Griffiths: 15:18

So I think, you know, it was actually a lot of the suffering and the trauma that I experienced in my kind of younger life and throughout my teens that was. That really, yeah, kickstarted an alternative way of thinking and looking at life. And my mum, she really encouraged me when I was 15 to get back into yoga. I'd done a little bit when I was in primary school and, yeah, I was in a really, really dark place. Post Traumatic stress disorder. I'd taken multiple suicide attempts at this point. I was kind of beyond. Well, I felt like I was beyond anything and I thought, what the hell is yoga going to do for me? And she convinced me to go. And, yeah, so eternally grateful to my mum for that. And so when I started going to the yoga classes and thank you, Shirley, my yoga teacher, she's just so wonderful. I really owe so much to them. But, yeah, going to these yoga classes and starting to come back into my body, which was a place that I been so disassociated from for quite some time and it was a place that I didn't feel safe, I didn't feel safe in my body. So to start coming back into it in a way that was kind of regulated and in a way where I could start to feel safe again in my body was so empowering. And, I mean, I was really lucky in the sense that I had quite a lot of support around me, I was receiving quite a lot of mental health support. I had amazing friends and really loving family and everyone was really trying to do their best for me, but, you know, I just didn't feel like anything was really helping. Felt so lost. And yeah, you know, and medication, I was given a load of medication which just kind of turned me into a bit of a zombie. So, you know, all of this external help that was coming my way. Thank you so much. But, you know, it didn't really feel like it was helping. So to then actually feel that I could empower myself, that actually I didn't need anything external of me to help me, that actually just coming onto the mat and being there with myself was shifting something, it was transforming Something. So, yeah, that was kind of the, you know, real one of a few kind of key turning points I feel in my life. And, yeah, I owe my mum a lot for that. And there was another thing, and I actually repeated this to my mum recently. I won't go into all of the ins and outs because, yeah, it's quite personal, family things, which I don't feel comfortable sharing just yet or if ever, of course. But anyway, yeah, so I was speaking to my mum recently and I offered her the same piece of advice that she offered me over 10 years ago. And she said, ursula, forgive yourself. And I thought, what? I was so angry with her. What do you mean, forgive myself? I'm a victim, you know, and I was so in that victim mentality. And I was really, really angry with her because I thought. But I've not done anything wrong, you know, it felt like she'd made out that I'd, you know, that it, you know, something was my fault. I completely misunderstood what she was really trying to say. But what she meant by forgive yourself was, you know, the longer that I stayed entrenched in all of that very destructive behaviour, you know, the more that I was just punishing myself. And, you know, a few years later, it clicked. Ah, you know, all of this anger and this hatred and this grief and this sadness, all of this thing, all of these things that I'm carrying, it's just eating away at me. And you know how it. And I was angry at certain things and certain people and I realised that it wasn't actually changing anything. What had happened had happened. And this anger and hatred was just. There's that saying, isn't there? Being angry is like eating or drinking poison. It's like wanting another person to suffer, but actually you're the one that ends up suffering. And so I really felt that. And so I thought, okay, right, you know, I have to start forgiving myself. And so, yeah, still on this journey of understanding what it really means. And I've, you know, slowly, slowly been having these moments, extended moments of really feeling in my body what it's like to be in total forgiveness and really just unconditional love for myself. And I feel like the periods of time that I get to experience that unconditional love is extending and, yeah, very much softening and loving myself even more. Yeah. Something I was thinking about recently, the. The

James Mayer: 21:37

phrase, oh, he loves himself, or, oh, she loves herself. Yeah. Has been something that has been used kind of like in the ego sense of. Or that person's got a. Just a big head or an absolute huge ego. But if you flip that to actually truly loving yourself and how much work it takes to get to that space, because it's something I've thought about over the past few years when people come in and out of Elias, you know, big chunks of relationships can break down and we pour our worth into these things and then when they come to a resolve, a resolution and it ends, we can feel worthless or part of us is gone in that time. And for me, I arrived at a sense of that over the past few years of just really loving who I am as a person and what I stand for in life and the path that I'm on, trying to help people. We briefly touched on it before we started recording. Was everything that has played out in my storey, be it good, be it bad, the circumstance of things happening out of my control, things people have done to me, said to me, acted towards me. When that nature's not really ever been in my heart, especially as I've got older and wiser, it's really coming to that place of, oh, I see the picture for what it is now and I'm so glad I've ended up this person through it. And there's been many versions of me through those things. And I think that's the unfolding as we sit here speaking today. It's like if we listen to this podcast in 20 years time, we'd probably be like, oh, look at those little babies just talking about life at these ages. So I really like see things from that perspective as well. Of like, like, like you said, the curiosity of, of being open and not, not cementing into. Right, I know this, this is me as I'm approaching 40. Like, this is me. This is what I know is keeping that open mind to the journey because life is always going to unfold, things are always going to come from places you never expected, no matter how much work we've done. And this could be a bigger topic of a podcast itself, but I think that you'll see in your world as well. I think there's a danger in the word healing. Like it's an endpoint. I'm going to go to a sound bath and be healed. After these six yoga sessions, I'm going to be free. And it's, it's, it's a never ending journey of finding things like you said, to support you on your journey of true change. And when you step into that version of yourself, it's then being consistent with the things that are serving you well in your life to keep you on that journey of curiosity to the next thing that can help you when life gets tricky and difficult. So I connected with yoga briefly, not as deeply as you did, but I would say in a time where I was really in a dark space, I found a yoga teacher called Daria. She came on an older episode of the podcast. And when I look back, like, to the. The arcing storey of that, how much those yoga sessions and that brief window of maybe like a year of me practising Kundalini with Daria and going on a couple of, like, longer day sessions with her, how much it connected with my world of like, even singing and her getting us to sing songs that I'd never heard before. And I remember there was one moment she was like, sing. And we were singing and I think because I. I was really conscious because I can sing, didn't want to seem like the person in the. In the room that was over singing or you know, when people like, oh, someone's really, really singing. Like, I didn't want, like, to take away from the room and like a spotlight, like, kind of like beyond me. But there was a moment she was like, sing from your heart. And she said it with so much authority and it really freed me up and opened up something in me that I was like that little boy that is. That can do the thing, but doesn't want to be seen to do the thing, but also does want to be seen to do the thing she wrote. She just really hit a moment that stuck with me. And then there was a song that she played which has been the final song of every sound bath of mine. I wrap everything up with that song. So sometimes you don't realise what a portion of your life is serving for a later stage of life. And I think that was a question I wanted to ask today that was on my mind was, what's a. What's a section of your journey? And it, it doesn't even have to be like a deep part where you were really aware of, oh, this is really serving me for me. I, long storey short, ended up running a computer shop, which I took over from my cousin after I came out of kind of like days of being in a band and just living in a. In a. In a world which wasn't the norm. Coming back to kind of like an everyday job of a business that I didn't really want to take on, but had no money. I needed money, need to earn a living. And I spent five years working pretty much in solitude, fixing computers, laptops, phones and constantly question like, this Isn't me. What am I doing in this space? But I did it for. For quite a long time because it was uncomfortably comfortable. When I was thinking about that this morning, there was so much time in that where I was just present, fixing things, listening to podcasts, listening to people like Mooji, who helped shift my mind and just see things in a way. Now, if someone asked me about that five years, I'd be like, oh, it was a really boring five years. There was a lot of life that happened around just. Just the job title and what I was doing for work. But in that space, it was solitude. I was in solitude fixing things, listening to things, and in turn, fixing myself without. Without realising, fixing parts of myself. So what's a section of your life, when you look back in hindsight, that has served you in that deeper way that you might not have realised that you were in at that time? That's

Ursula Griffiths: 27:53

beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. Oh, I could probably name a few. I'd say I'll pull two. Yeah, pull two cards. I'd say one was probably when I was living on the boat, I used to live on a canal boat with my ex partner and we're still really good friends. Yeah, he's a really special person in my life and I feel really, really grateful for him. And that time, it was just really joyous. So joyous. It was a little fairy tale and it was everything that I needed to be. And when I look back at that time, it was really beginning to kind of settle into myself. And I mean, I look back at that girl now and I think, gosh, you know, she was so. She had no clue, you know, she was just really trying to figure it out and she was. Yeah. But it was a beautiful time of that, of learning who I was through this beautiful, loving, joyous relationship in this little fairy tale on a boat. So, yeah, I think kind of from all of the hardship in my teens to then come into a beautiful, fun, loving relationship that was. That served me a lot. And then the other card I'll pull is, after that relationship ended, I went travelling. And my first trip was for eight months around Southeast Asia. I spent two months in Indonesia, two months in the Philippines, two months in Vietnam and two months in Laos. And I spent most of that on a motorbike, bought a motorbike when I was in Ho Chi Minh. And the route that I took through Vietnam was kind of a bit. Well, it was off the beaten track. Let's say that one of my favourite storeys from that trip is when I got Lost in the jungle. Like, really lost in the jungle? Yeah. I mean, I was just so naive and stupid, really. And, yeah, so I'd been going for miles and miles, and I just kept on going deeper into the jungle, and I thought, oh, no, I've run out of fuel. And oh, no, I have no water, and, oh, no, I have no food, and oh, I have no signal. So I was literally in the middle of nowhere. Anyway, an angel found me and guided me out. I mean, when I say an angel, it was a Vietnamese. He was a ranger. He had this ranger jacket on. And I really felt like my life really could have gone down two pathways. And. And I was trying so hard not to panic. I was like, ursula, it's going to be okay. And I'd actually been listening to BK Light on Life. BK Saiyanga. He's a yoga teacher. And the yoga that I started with when I was in my teens was Iyenga yoga. So much of my teaching and learning has been inspired by that style. So I was listening to BK So yonga lalala lalala. And I thought, okay, don't panic right now. I'm okay. And so just be present. Don't start panicking about what. What could or could not, you know, may or may not happen. Just try and think really practically, what can I do to get myself out of this situation? And I hadn't seen civilization for, like, the last two hours, apart from this little hut that I'd maybe passed half an hour back the way I'd come. And I figured it was a ranger's hook because there was uniform hanging outside. And I felt so vulnerable at that point. And I thought, well, you know, if I find somebody and they have bad intentions, then they could chop me up and no one would know where I am. I had told no one where I was going. Nobody knew where I was. So silly. And, yeah, so I did. I sent out a little prayer and I said, please, please help me get out of here safe. And when I arrived at the hut, there was this man there. And for whatever reason, I don't know, he was potting flowers in the jungle. I don't know why you want to put flowers in a pot in the jungle, but that's what he was doing. And I thought, okay, that's a good sign. And we were trying to communicate with one another about. Well, he was first very perplexed. Why the hell is this, like, young white girl in the middle of this Vietnamese jungle? Like, what the hell? And so I was pointing to my fuel gauge, and he Figured I had no fuel. So he disappeared around a corner, came back, filled up the fuel tank. Then I tried to explain to him where I was going, but of course, you know, just pointing on a map, and he looks at me like I'm absolutely crackers, which he's probably not far off. And then he took out this little napkin, and he drew a line and wrote go, and then drew another line and wrote go, and then another line and wrote go. And we looked at the napkin, we looked at each other, we looked at the napkin, we looked at each other, and we were like, no way am I getting out of this jungle with this piece of napkin. So he ended up take guiding me for three hours out of the jungle. But just as we were leaving, there was a group of other rangers turning up at this hut, and my gut kind of just dropped. There was the look in one of this man's eye, and I've seen that look before, and I was like, oh. Like, get me out of here. So I really felt like that man had saved me. And I crashed the bike a couple of times because we were just driving over bare rock and down waterfalls and dodging big piles of elephant poo and, like, wobbling through the sand. So it was a real adventure. And, you know, I tried to offer him money at the end of that, like, thank you so much for helping me. And he didn't want anything. And there was this. I remember first coming back onto. Onto tarmac after. For hours. Oh, my God, tarmac. But, yeah, that was. I mean, just that whole trip. But the amount of times I was on the bike and just wept. And I can't tell you whether it was joy or grief or what, but it was just this feeling of like, oh, my God, I am alive. And, yeah, you know, I would spend hours and hours and hours. So that day actually ended up spending maybe it was 10, could have been 11 hours on the bike. I was exhausted, and by the time I got to where I was going, I got off the bike, collapsed in a puddle on the floor. The bike fell on top of me, and I just laughed because I was so glad to be somewhere with food. And there was this Vietnamese girl looking at me like, oh, my God, are you okay? But there were so many moments on that trip and throughout my life, increasingly over the last several years, where, yeah, I just weep because I'm alive. And I just. I can't believe. Feels like a real miracle. There was a moment I had the other day, and it was so boring. It was so ordinary. I was walking along and it was raining and I'd actually sat and paused inside for a moment. I got the day wrong. Going to class. Life of a dyslexic. And, yeah, I sat and paused for a moment and I was just watching people move by, kind of going about their working day. And it really struck me how temporary everything is. You know, I was kind of observing this movement around me and kind of watching the movement of my mind and the feelings, the sensations that I had in my body. And it all felt just so temporary. And I thought kind of similar to what you said before about there's going to be a point in my life where I look back and, you know, this is going to be a memory and I'm going to think, oh, you know, who was that person? And I was so struck with how temporary everything was, moment to moment. And I stepped outside and it was raining and I was wearing sandals and my feet, my socks were wet. I was like, hmm, interesting sensation. Okay. And I could feel the rain on my palms and I was like, oh, yeah, you know, that's nice. And I was kind of noticing how my previous reaction when I'd been walking in the rain was to kind of like pull my hood up and huddle in. Oh, no, it's just like, it's temporary and, oh, kind of nice being a bit wet and cold. It's temporary. And it really just. It was like a wet fish came and slapped me around the face. Like, this is all temporary. And this feeling of kind of. I don't know, it felt ecstatic and blissful being so struck with how temporary it all was. And by the time I'd walked back to the car, I was in such a state. And I got into the car and I was the seat, the plastic, the sound of the rain and tears were in my eyes and I was like, oh, the moisture and just breathing. And I couldn't believe this breath that was coming into me and feeling it expand into my lungs. And it was. I can't explain to you, it was so normal but so extraordinary. And I didn't know whether I was coming or going. And it was just. It was phenomenal. It was ecstatic. It was completely blissful and it was just so normal and it was kind of really just dropping into that feeling of how temporary things are. And so, you know, I feel like this kind of loops back round to the feeling of being curious. So, you know, on these trips away, travelling and being so blessed and granted with this time where I don't have any responsibility, I'm Just doing. I'm just there. I'm just present in my life and experiencing new things, which also kind of helps with that feeling of curiosity. It's harder being curious when you're in the day to day life. When you're in mundane, that's when it starts getting really magical, when you start, you know, finding this magic in the day to day things. It's a little easier when you're experiencing some grand thing for the first time. But it was like training. It was like training to get curious, training to be in awe, training to be really present in that moment and, you know, reflecting on how far I've come and on all of the moments where I've been so close to losing my life and there's been many of them. And to then drop into this feeling of like, oh, my God, I am alive. And it's phenomenal. It's such. Yeah. And it's also. And I, you know, it's this thing of it being both joyful and sad, you know, it's both things. Life is not just one thing or the other. It isn't, and it won't ever be, always pleasure or joy. And actually so much of the juiciness and goodness of life, I feel, comes from diving deep into this shit and not turning away from it. Being really curious to what it's like to be in pain and getting comfortable in that pain, kind of nestling in, like, all right, okay, pain. How does it feel? Let me feel you. Let's be here with you. And so that was a lot of the bike trip. I would spend hours on the bike in the rain, in freezing cold, in awful conditions. There was one time I couldn't see more than two metres in front of me. And I thought, oh, my God, I'm gonna die on this mountain. And there was no road. It was thick mud. At one point, I'd picked up this drunk man who'd crashed his bike on the side of the road and we were like waddling down the road on the bike together. It was crazy. It was a whole. Yeah, that's a whole other storey. But it was brutal, you know, But I think it's kind of being in that pain on that particular journey I'm thinking of in my mind now. I thought, just get through this next second. Just keep focused. Don't think about another hour of sitting here frozen to the bone, you know, having to, like, really concentrate on not dying. Just get through this next moment. Oh, yeah, there's this pain in my lower back and I can't feel My fingers and oh, yeah, there's rain that's blitzing me in the face. But just the next moment, just the next moment, just the next moment, just the next moment. And then before you know it, oh, I'm at this lovely homestay and this woman's looking after me and she's like, it's, you know. Yeah. And so I think, in a way, I actively choose to look for things that are challenging and cause me to be in pain and to struggle. That's why I think I love cold water swimming so much, because it's, you know, you're so forced into your body and not necessarily in a very comfortable way. It's stinging, it's almost. Being in really, really cold water is like being in boiling water. It really, really hurts. But, you know, kind of being with that, it's like, oh, yeah, this is really painful, but it's okay. I'm just gonna breathe through this and know that I'm okay. And then, you know, the way that. That draws me into myself, it's wonderful. So, yeah, to kind of round back to your question. I think all of those monotonous hours on the bike and the hours and hours and days and days and weeks and weeks I spent by myself not seeing very many other people. Yeah, I really took a lot from that. And it was around that time also that I did my first vipassana meditation course. And by the time I got to the course, it was like, oh, I feel like I've had a good. Plenty of training on the bike and with the cold water swimming to sit in the horrendous pain that came through those days of meditating. Yeah, yeah. So there we go. I think

James Mayer: 44:57

just listening to that, there's something that. That popped in my mind. So I released a song recently and I've been playing ham Pam for a while. I've been putting hanpan music out, but I've left a whole part of my world out of me singing and producing and writing. And I created this piece for like a branded yoga aesthetic. So it started as that just an instrumental I was producing. And as I was working on it, I could feel the songwriter side of me creeping out with melodies. And I was like, oh, this is something I need to write to. And it became probably like one of my most poignant pieces I've ever written just based on where I was at. And there's a line that came out when I was writing it. Sometimes these things don't even feel like it's you. It's coming from another place. And it was your light is where darkness teaches. And the song is a conversation with God saying, take me deeper, take me to the next place. I know I've been through a lot, but really show me the next part of life now. And it was that. It's like every moment of those real dark places of life, it is actually light that comes later. And I always believe you were in those moments for a reason. And it can sound a bit. It can sound a bit dismissive at times, like you just bypassing maybe somebody's journey. But I do believe where you are in life, you are exactly supposed to be there in that moment. And I think when people think about, like, inner work, really looking at those shadows of yourself and going into those darker moments, I think in our world in the west, we can very much think about, oh, it needs to be meditation, it needs to be yoga, it needs to be a sambath or all these modalities that can help, truly help you in those moments. But sometimes it is just being on a motorbike, on a muddy track, or just struggling with something in every everyday life. For me, it's my morning walks to go and get a coffee. It's just a clearing of. Of overstimulation of ideas, things I want to do, goals I want to achieve, or maybe just some processing of life that I need to do because I can feel I woke up today and I'm not feeling like my best self. And it's not always the things that we categorise that, oh, you need to go and do this to work on yourself is those moments that just come through every day, but observing them as well, observing, for me personally observing how I'm feeling and how that really small practise of just a walk in the morning when I come back, I always feel better for it. And it's. It's the smaller things. And I think we have placed this big sign on things that need to be. You need to go and do the work. And what is the work? It's different for everyone and it doesn't need to be like you go into the gym and lifting the heaviest weight. You could lift five kilogrammes every day and repeat that, that could be the work. So I think we always, if you compare it to the gym, we always think, like, the work is like getting on and lifting the heaviest weight. And this, this is what it looks like. But working on yourself is a. Is a showing up every day for me, just observing yourselves, observing yourself in those everyday micro moments and touching on what you said is, I Woke up the other day, had a shower and just felt so overwhelmed with gratitude of where I find myself in life at the moment. Just the storey that I'm in and everything's temporary. So I think it was beautiful because I was grateful. But it's also like a strange sadness that I know that this is a temporary storey. Everything has its time. Every storey you're ever in comes to an end. So there's this, like, juxtaposition of. Of the human experience of, this is so beautiful. But at what point is this part of my life come to an end and I shift into a new place? So I think you obviously feel things deeply like I do, and when you said, you know, I'm a deep thinker, one question I really love to ask. Have you ever had anyone punish you for being that thinker or ever use the term it's not that deep, or you think too deep about things?

Ursula Griffiths: 49:30

Yeah, probably. I don't know if I can think of an exact moment or person, but there's certainly been times where I've felt very misunderstood. I mean, who hasn't? Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, I think everyone could probably say that they've felt like an outsider if they felt different. I don't think I'm any different in saying that I felt different. And perhaps because I have been slightly alternative in various ways throughout my life, whether people have shamed me for that, most probably. But, yeah, I don't think I can think of any specific examples. Do you ever find it difficult

James Mayer: 50:31

being somebody that thinks deeply? Do you ever think. For me, I always find, like, it's a gift and it. I don't want to use the word curse. It's not a curse. There's. There's really great moments about it. And then there can be quite heavy moments about it when I'm like, do people just not go through life, like, processing things like this? Because some days it would be nice to have a day off and I'm aware of my own mindset and how I look at things and process. And then these other days, I'm like, wow, I'm so glad I think like this and I see the world how I do. Do you ever find it? It can be quite intense sometimes. Oh, yeah.

Ursula Griffiths: 51:07

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And it's got so much worse as I've meditated. You know, maybe there is this kind of, like, shiny conception of or misconception that as you meditate, things get easier. There is some truth to that. Yes. In many ways, my life has got immensely more easeful because of Meditation. But in many ways it's completely and utterly maddening because, yeah, I'm more than ever confronted with my own neurosis. And I'm not saying that like I'm clinically neurotic, maybe some people would argue that, but more in the sense that, wow, my mind is just so unbelievably busy and there's just not even profound things that I'm thinking. Just a load of crap. And also things that I don't want to recognise and seeing myself. I was speaking to a friend recently who did their first vipassana and what's so interesting to me is a lot of the people that I've spoken to after their first vipassana meditation course, they all say similar things. And I felt this for myself. Also on the first one was how I realised how much I judge people. Wow. Oh my God, I'm so judgmental. And that just goes against every little kind of way I would like to view myself. Oh, no, I'm not a judgmental person. I'm a caring, kind, accepting person. I'm a nice person. I'm a good person. And this comes back to the good girl that I'm very much trying to unpick. Yeah, this kind of conditioning I can see in my life from being a, you're a good girl, being perfect and this perfectionism which has showed up in many ways throughout my life. But yeah, no, I really realised how much I judge people and we all do. Like, you know, it's not something that we need to pretend that we don't do. And yeah, so I think with meditation especially, it's just highlighted, you know, it's just highlighted how much this voice in my head is always going and oftentimes with things that I kind of don't wish it was saying or doing. And if, yeah, there's been points where I'm like, oh my God, turn it off. But yeah, equally, it feels like a blessing. I'm like, wow. Oh, I can see. I can see what's going on now. I'm not just completely ignorant to this narrative that's happening. And so, you know, so I feel like I can catch myself and with just this little bit of space that is growing in my mind, then I feel like I can make a choice. So, oh, okay, I'm doing that thing again where I'm judging somebody. Where does that judgement come from? Why am I thinking that? Is that true? Do I need to believe that? Can I give space for that judgement to be proved wrong or can I challenge my own judgments? Or, you know, oh, wow, I'm really judging myself right now. Which is kind of really what it is. You know, the amount that we judge other people is. I feel, really the amount that we judge ourselves. That's a great point. So, you know, wow, God, you know, I'm so judgmental of myself and with the kindness, the curiosity. Oh, okay. I'm judging myself a lot. Wow. Okay, wow. I'm really quite mean to myself a lot of the time. But now that I have that little bit of space, it's like, okay, well, let's change the narrative. Ursula, I really love you. You're doing a really great job. So proud of you. And yeah, you're judging yourself. Okay, that's normal. That's fine. That's natural. Okay. Where's that come from? Why do you feel that way? What do you need right now? What would make you feel better? Can you feel in your. Where is that in your body? Can you feel your feet on the ground? Like, let's just take a moment. What's your breath doing? It's like, oh, okay, all right, that's great. Cheque ins. Such powerful cheque ins that

James Mayer: 56:14

so many people will overlook to really bring you out of that. That thought process is just coming back to those basic things of returning to that still point is a really powerful thing. Yeah. So,

Ursula Griffiths: 56:30

yeah. And you know, I just feel like it's helping me so much more in my relationships with other people, having that little bit of spaciousness and. Yeah. My relationship with myself and my relationship with the world around me. And it's not to say that it stops. Meditation isn't to stop these thoughts. It's not to change anything. It's really just to sit more into whatever is in that moment. And then it feels empowering because I can make a choice. And even if I fall into all of the same old habits and patterns. Okay, so be curious with that. All right. Oh, yeah, look, I did it again. Okay, that's fine. And I feel, you know, a measure of growth isn't necessarily, oh, I don't do that thing anymore. It's like, oh, well, I used to do that thing every day. Or. But now, you know, now I can. Or how else would I word this? So. Oh. So Goenka talks about this in the vipassana and he says, you know, maybe you sit in anger for eight hours, but now that you've been meditating, you're able to catch yourself after six hours. And maybe as time goes on, you might able to catch yourself after four. And then maybe it's just an hour and maybe then you're able to catch yourself a minute after and maybe you're able to catch yourself just before you get angry and maybe still choose anger or whatever, whatever emotion it is, whatever reaction, whatever pattern, habit, whatever. And you catch yourself just before and maybe still go into it, but you know, it's having that kind of feeling. Oh yeah, okay. This is the slow progress and I really love what you said about, you know, the work really being in just the ordinary kind of day to day life. And I do feel perhaps within the spiritual community and I can say this because I've done this also myself. You know, it's like, oh, do the big thing. Do you know, have the big experience or have the big breakthrough moment or have this profound thing happen and it's all singing, all dancing and I don't want to kind of rain on the parade of any of these kind of spiritual or wellness modalities but, but kind of chasing this big thing, this big feeling, this breakthrough moment and thinking that that's it. Well, yeah, maybe, you know, maybe that can be really helpful. Maybe that does help change or transform something. But as you rightly say, it's showing up the little things in day to day life. It's not these all singing, all dancing moments, but in those moments where you're talking down to yourself, when I'm talking down to myself, how do I react then? You know, I feel like a real measure of growth is how you're relating to people and can you provide space for somebody to be who they are as they are in that moment without your preconceived judgments and ideas?

James Mayer: 1:00:21

Yeah. And you know, can I allow myself to be that as

Ursula Griffiths: 1:00:24

well? Can I meet myself fully in this moment without all of my old storeys of who I think I am? That's so hard. You know, here we are talking about our lives. We have such, you know, really, we have such, such fixed ideas of who we think we are to and like. But to dissolve that, like, what does that mean, you know, who the hell am I without all of my storeys? That's terrifying. No, I, I like who I am. So it's uncomfortable. It's. And yeah, I think, you know, to kind of put ourselves in boxes and to put others in boxes feels, feels kind of safe actually. You know, it's, it's a way of trying to make sense of the world and navigate and feel kind of comfortable and safe. It's scary. Kind of breaking those, those boundaries and those borders of who we think we are and who other people, who we think other people are, because it creates so much uncertainty and that's really scary. And this is the thing of social media as well. It's

James Mayer: 1:01:37

kind of like this is our first time meeting today. I only see of you what you choose to show the world. I'm the same

Ursula Griffiths: 1:01:45

right now. Yeah. But it's kind of like most likely we're

James Mayer: 1:01:49

gonna pick. Pick our. Unless you're sharing something, like deeper and, you know, difficult things. But we're all mainly posting highlight reels. Look at this. This is a great trip. This is a great birthday party. This was a great event. Like all these breakthrough moments. So we sit on the other side of it, creating a makeup of who that person might be. I often think, and it's from a place of curiosity, if I think of this person like this great, great example, like Malte Martin, best hanpan player in the world. Clearly you can't be on a hampan journey without knowing who that is. Every clip he posts, every video just. Just embodies like, oh, that's a super spiritual human being. And I think, but what does he do when he's just going food shopping or when like someone's cut him off in traffic? I'd love to see that version of him. And I think these versions of ourselves that then these people on the other side of. Of the screens creating these whole narratives. Then I think, oh, what are people create? And it's not from an ego sense, it's a curiosity sense. What narrative are people creating about me when they see the things that I choose to post compared to when they meet me in person? Because we are human. Like when we show up in these spaces. I'm definitely not trying to be a guru of any way, like a perfect human. I am very human. But we are all looking at each other through these lenses of the choice of the thing that we are choosing to convey to the world. So I always like this when I, when I meet this version of someone in a podcast arena in space. But then there's also the other version when we're aware that the cameras aren't rolling. And maybe when I've noticed quite even with myself, when, when the camera rolls, we are aware and then it stops and then the shoulders drop a little bit and then there'll be conversation that happens and I'll think, wish that was on the podcast. So as we, as we started talking and we were connecting on little dots, part of me is like, let me hit record, because I want that conversation, to be honest. But there's Also, little three moments that I picked up on as we said hello and I was talking about perfectionism and you went, ah, yes. So for me, I think there's many times in even thinking in the moment, but my dad used to draw and used to teach me to draw and show me how to shade in, and I always wanted it to be in the line and if it went over the line, I've messed it up. I think it's such a natural thing. But little moments throughout my life that truly created the perfectionist in me, and I think I'm really trying to unpick that now. Things like you might wake up tired on a day that you know you're going to podcast. There's no makeup team around, so now it's like, I'm going to look tired on that podcast. And that's what it is. Because there's days when people see me in the world that I'm going to look fresh and great, and then there's going to be other days that I just look like I'm having the worst day ever. And I think I'm unpicking that as well and showing off in the spaces of the online space a bit more open and vulnerable, where it's like, I don't. I don't think I look great today on camera, but this message is more important than me, and it could land with somebody that may just really need that, whether I look tired or not. And I think for me, it's like years of mixing songs and creating things and being in arenas of this has to be right for it to work. And I'm really unpicking that now. So what, what in your life? Because you kind of laughed as I said that. So straight away I was like, oh, there's a. There's a connection there where we'd be able to jump into this. What in your life created that version where you feel like things need to be perfect? I had a

Ursula Griffiths: 1:05:41

similar conversation, actually with a very good family friend. They've watched me grown up. They're kind of like my second parents. And we have really beautiful, open, honest conversations with one another. And we were talking about perfectionism and why some people will respond in one way and another person could experience the same thing and respond in a completely different way. Something I really admire about my brother is the fact that he's just so nonchalant. He's just like, you know, very stoic. My brother is amazing. He's given me the most incredible advice over the years. But, yeah, so, you know his reaction to Things. It's just something he said to me recently. He was like, not my monkey, not my circus. I'm like, wow, I wish I could have that attitude but I feel responsible and I feel engaged and blah, blah, blah. So I think partly it's just how I am. I think from a very young age I've been responsible and I've been very capable. So I was given a lot of responsibility from a young age and yeah, kind of been told that I'm a good girl from a young age and really wanting to be good. And in fact in one of the vipassanas it was a sitting that during that time I had a lot of very early childhood memories come back to me. Not anything necessarily significant but. Or some things, yes. But you know, I had one memory of being put into the, into the car seat so I must have been, I don't know, two or three years old. And in one of the memories I remember my, my Auntie Anne, my Auntie Angela who's just such a sweet woman, she was so wonderful. I remember something she always used to say, ooh, ooh, she was just so sweet. And yeah, in this memory I remember her saying, oh Ursula, you're such a good girl. And I can feel this kind of when, you know, when I look back at my life when somebody says, oh, you've done a really good job, my mum even now tells me, oh, good girl. And you know, if I've done, I don't know, whatever, it's her way of praising me. She says, good girl. And I know it's just coming from such a loving place and it's not meant to kind of be this conditioning or whatever, but I'm like, wow, I really want to be a good girl. And I think, yeah, then going to quite a high achieving school. I went to an all girls grammar school and a lot of the girls there were very, very intelligent and I didn't feel like I had necessarily the same level of intelligence or maybe I'm just not that academic honestly. And I think because I had also dyslexia that kind of got, it didn't get picked up until I was maybe 17 or 18. So kind of going to this school of all girls in a quite a well off area. You know, people have a lot of money and just also teenage girls and growing up and the levels of comparison and wanting to be liked and you know, all of these things, it just kind of ignited this already perfectionistic quality within myself. And I think one of the many, many, many reasons that when I was 12. I had anorexia. I'd been dieting since I was maybe eight, secretly. And that was partly. It's not the whole storey, but partly wrapped up in this idea of wanting to be perfect. And, yeah, you know, I think it's also a bit of a trap with spirituality and meditation and yoga. It's like, you know, getting it perfect. Well, if I meditate, then that makes me a good human being. If I'm doing yoga, then, you know, that makes me X, Y and Z. If I can get this, then, oh, I'm a good person. I'm a kind person. Again, all of these labels that I want to kind of associate myself with and something that I've been trying to get more comfortable with recently is the fact that I'm gonna be a villain in somebody's storey.

James Mayer: 1:11:15

I cannot tell you how nuts it is that you said that because this has been something that has been on my mind for weeks and weeks and weeks that somewhere you are the villain in someone's storey. No matter how much you're showing up in the world, knowing from your heart, every day you go out and you're doing your best, there'll be times you won't do your best, but there's someone that's looking at you from whatever perspective and you are the villain in their storey. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. I'm probably a villain in quite a few

Ursula Griffiths: 1:11:46

people's storeys, so. Okay. Okay. Like, again, let's get curious with how that feels to be the villain in somebody's storey. It does not feel nice. It feels awful. Feels really uncomfortable because I think I'm a good person. I think I'm a good person. I feel like I'm, you know. But, yeah, I'm definitely a villain in somebody's storey. And maybe, you know, maybe I'm not even. Maybe. Well, yes, I'm definitely a villain in people's storeys, but in other people's storeys, maybe they just don't like me. That's okay. Yeah. And, yeah, you know, getting comfortable with being rejected and wow. I mean, that. That's also been such a process for me over the last couple of years, like, really diving deep into all of this old childhood wounding and, you know, I don't want to start painting a bad picture of my parents because they really have done absolute best for me. But, yeah, you know, seeing how all of these different things that have happened in my life and all of these different storeys and way that people have responded to me. Yeah. Really triggers these wounds of feeling Rejected or not being good enough, you know. Okay, so recently, the other week, we were doing some content filming for a studio where I work, where I teach. And we had to get up. Teachers were taking it in turns to lead very short bit of class. And I've been teaching now for last. Oh, gosh, how many? Seven, eight years. And I've been practising since I was nine. You know, yoga is something that I'm pretty comfortable with. But anyway, for part of this content, we're asked to come up to stand in front of the class, a little mic is put on and we're being filmed. And I don't know why, but I was so nervous. Well, I do know why. It was because I wanted to be good enough. It's because I wanted it to be perfect, because I wanted to be perceived by this class, you know, to be a good yoga teacher. And probably because there's this added pressure on me, the storey that I've created. I've done yoga since I was nine. You know, I've been teaching for X amount of years. I'm a good yoga teacher. So ridiculous. And I got so nervous because I was being watched, because I was being seen and my hands were shaking and I was like, ursula, this is ridiculous. And after, After I'd left, I sat in the car and I was like, wow, I just really want to be good enough. And so I had to sit, I sat and I meditated for 10 minutes and I was like, ursula, you're good enough. You are good enough. And I think another part of that storey was actually, recently I've just had a lot on my plate and been pretty overstimulated and kind of rushing. So I've not felt particularly grounded and as kind of centred as I'd like to be. So I turned up already in a bit of a kind of heightened state from the. The previous. Things in that day. And so then coming into a class in this already kind of pretty agitated state, that didn't help, but, yeah, so, you know, this whole idea of being perfect and it's so, so, so funny to me to kind of watch this like, yo, yo, between myself of feeling, yeah, I am good enough, really feeling that, you know, having these moments of really genuinely loving myself and feeling so comfortable in myself being like, yeah, this is who I am. So, like, so comfortable, like, this is it. And then other moments where, oh, my God, it's like I've forgotten everything. And, yeah, it's so humbling to oscillate between these kind of moments of what it Feels like to remember this kind of deep remembering of something that feels really true and solid and then, and then oscillating to then feeling, you know, really unstable again and. Yeah. So kind of like what we were saying before, in those moments of instability, how do I react? How do I respond? Do I grate myself? Great. Is that the word? Great? I understand what you're saying. Yeah,

James Mayer: 1:17:22

yeah, yeah. Do you know, do I great myself and

Ursula Griffiths: 1:17:26

be like, oh, Ursula, you should do better than this? Like, you know better than this. You've done this a million times before. You've had so much experience with this. Like, why did you respond like that? Like on, you know, blah, blah, blah. What will people think of you? Nobody's going to want to come to your yoga class now. These conversations

James Mayer: 1:17:46

that arise in your head. Yes. It's like just going at yourself and just being harsh and being a critic of your own actions. Yeah.

Ursula Griffiths: 1:17:54

And then, and then, and then the other part of being like, oh, no, Ursula, you know better than to talk to yourself like that. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. And then I get. All right, everyone quiet down. Let's just. Okay, come back into the body for a moment. Feel it. All right. Okay. All right. Felt that, that happened. That was. That's the reality. I'm not going to try to pretend that that isn't my experience or that wasn't my experience. It's one of the things that I've taken and I've loved so much from Vipassana is this idea of being with the reality as it is and not trying to change it, not trying to fix it, not wanting it to be a different way, not wanting it to be the way that you expect it to be. Just being with it as it is. God, what a relief. What a relief. You know, it just strips back all of the pressure and the expectation to be something, to be perfect. It just allows. Allows me to be human, settle into my wonderfully imperfect humanness. And so, you know, just keep on going round in these cycles of remembering that, forgetting it, remembering it again, forgetting it again, remembering it again, forgetting it again. And if I can spend a little longer in the remembering phase and, you know, then, okay, that's a good thing. But, you know, maybe even that's wrong. You know, maybe it is just constantly remembering and forgetting. Yeah. Because

James Mayer: 1:19:46

no matter how long we've been practising stuff, I had a moment a few months ago. I was doing. I started doing online soundbars. So obviously it's a whole different experience. It's over. Zoom. There's more technical things that can go wrong. And I was like, right, I think it was about 8 o' clock till 9. I'll start setting up about 5 because I know how, how many instruments I've got to get set up. Mic up takes longer than I always imagine it. So I was like, I'm gonna give myself loads of time. I was like, oh, it's about

James Mayer: 5: 1:20:16

00 clock starting, start setting up. Right, okay, got

James Mayer: 1:20:20

loads of time. Get everything set up. And I'm connecting the mixer to my laptop. The mixer is the thing that you can connect all these microphones to pick up the instruments. So I open my software, I've done this a million times in my life, and I'm like, oh, my MacBook's not recognising my mixer. Wonder why. Turn it off, turn it back on. Nothing. Reset the whole mixer back to factory settings. And now I'm clock watching because 8 o' clock's approaching and there's people booked on. I don't want to send the email, like, I'm going to have to cancel tonight. And now I can feel myself sweating because I'm like, right, this is, this is ridiculous. I'm super prepared today. And now I've got this curveball. And I got to about 10 to 8, 10 minutes before I was like wanting to start. And I always like to ground myself and put myself in the energy of. Even though we're online, still delivering that same energy to people. And I was about to send an email to everyone, literally write and say, I can't do tonight, having technical problems. And I just looked at my mixer and I went, the wire's the wrong way around. And straight away, that voice, you such a.

Ursula Griffiths: 1:21:36

Such an idiot. You're a. And then the observer of like, oh,

James Mayer: 1:21:40

wow, look how I just responded to myself in that moment. I've been a musician, like with wires and cables and switches since I was 15. This is a while and there's still those moments that you just completely miss. However, forgot that. However not noticed. Bit like I've been here to two hours trying to figure out why this mixer isn't working. And it wasn't that it wasn't working. It's that cable was the wrong way around. Now I know I will never do that again without maybe or maybe I will. But every time now it's anchored something into me that I see that little extra piece of cable and know that that's the end for my laptop. So it's even like setting up events like Mixes, buttons, everything you buy. Why is there no sound power button? And, you know, I'm like 25 years deep of doing this stuff, so that's been a reminder of, like, no matter how much you practise things or these labels, like, you know, like you said, you're a good yoga teacher, you've got the experience, there is going to be these, these moments of humanness, especially when you're carrying a lot, you're doing a lot, you got a busy schedule, you can often miss stuff. And I think going back to the, the dyslexic thing that you've mentioned is I will type a post for Instagram and it might be for an event. I'll type it, I will read it again, go right, there is no spelling mistakes in this. And I'll read it again, There is no spelling mistakes in this. And then I'll post it and then obviously might come back to the post and see some engagement comments. And then I'll read the. I'm like, how, how is that, how is that, like, clearly a spelling mistake? When I've read that three times and three times my brain has just skipped over it and I think now because of AI and the world that we are not entering into, we've entered into, I think these human flaws are going to matter more than ever. Because now somebody can see that, oh, James is doing all these great events and it can start to look like your world's perfect behind the scene. There's so much chaos going on that I'm juggling to get that event live and, you know, create an experience for someone. And I think sometimes that busy mind spinning plates, wearing different hats is where you'll see the spelling mistakes. Even if I've triple checked it and triple read it myself, someone might message me and go, just so you know, you've. How? How? I've literally like checked it three times. But I think these human flaws are going to matter more than ever in the world that we're entering into and keep us connected to the fact that we are built that way to miss things, no matter how long or often we've been practising. Whatever it is in your life, meditation, boxing, like long marathon running, being a mechanic, anything, we're always gonna overlook things and miss things. And I think that is part of the human experience. Like you said, push and pull on and off, light and dark. We need to be in this to come back into that, to be like, oh, how? Why? And it's the remembering of. I've put enough work in to Remember that for next time. And like you said, but you might miss another time as well. So I think that's just the beautiful nature of our existence as well. Constantly being reminded that we're not perfect and perfection lies in the imperfection that is perfect in itself. So there's a couple of things I want to touch on with you that, that I've been thinking of. You mentioned that you modelled for quite a while. How did that part of your life serve you for where you're at now?

Ursula Griffiths: 1:25:34

I think I learned some really valuable skills in how to manage different people. And when I say manage, that almost sounds a bit controlling. Not in the sense of trying to control people, but actually more so manage my own self with different people. It wasn't honestly a world that I felt very natural in. It kind of happened and it was exciting and it was a lot of fun and I got to travel and I made some good money, especially for my age, which enabled me to go on and do many amazing things with my life. So, I mean, in a very kind of like, materialistic way, I guess, you know, allowed me to buy a canal boat and save to go travelling and pay for my, my yoga training. But yeah, on the, on the point of working with lots of different people, it was, yeah, it was, it was, it was challenging. You work with some pretty big characters in the modelling industry. And so I got pretty good at knowing, kind of walking into a room and being able to judge kind of who was who and what was what and, and be very adaptive in how I was to, to navigate that space. So, for example, oftentimes there were people that would talk about me in front of me as if I'm just, you know, an object, a mannequin, whatever. And, you know, they'd say things about my body or they'd say things about me. And so, you know, in some instances I might say, okay, yeah, understood, gotta. And I would, I would, even though they weren't talking directly to me, I would acknowledge the fact that they'd said something but be so sweet about it, you know, not respond to it in an angry or negative way, being like, okay, I heard you. Yep, sure. Because then it's, you know, it's like, you know, what you're saying isn't going to affect me. Like, I'm not going to let your way of perceiving me beat me down. And even though you're not talking to me like a human being, I'm going to respond back to you because you're in front of me. Or, yeah, I Built a lot of tough skin, really. And through that I also had a lot of rejection. So I had to really get. And it's so funny when I say this because yes, in a way I got really comfortable in myself, but a lot of it, you know, I think it was also affecting me in ways that perhaps I wouldn't admit to myself then. But yeah, I remember, I remember reading comments on some of the, the images of myself online, on Instagram, whatever. Be like, oh, this bitch needs to smile. Oh, you know, like, you know, she looks like this or she's so ugly or blah, blah, blah, with these horrible comments. And initially I thought, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna message these people and say, hi. Just FYI, I'm the girl in that picture that you commented on. Like, just be careful with what you say online because you're talking about real people. It might really affect how somebody feels about themselves. And I can genuinely say that it was kind of like water off a duck's back at that point. I, I'd been through so much with my, in my, in my teens that I kind of had a little insight actually to what was important and I knew that my image wasn't really important. And, you know, and this is the thing about like two things, two opposing things being true at the same time. Yes, that's true. I knew that my image wasn't important. But on another level, yes, it was still painful, so. But it would vary in different circumstances. Some things were easier to wash off than others. So. Yeah. And sometimes those people would respond by saying, oh, actually, wow, I'm really sorry. Some people would just kind of ignore me and other people would kind of back chat and be like, oh, piss off, whatever. Yeah. And after a point I was like, you know, this is really a waste of my time. Let people say whatever they want about me. So, yeah, I definitely did build up some tough skin. But I think what I found challenging was. So I'd started when I was 17 and at that time in my life I was partying a lot, I was drinking a lot, I was taking a lot of drugs and I probably wasn't eating very much. So I was tiny. There was, I mean, I'm also a young 17 year old girl. There's not really much to me. And so as the years go on and I kind of start a big shift was we mentioned this briefly before we started recording my. One of my best friends, Jenny, she died of cancer. And when I found out that she was terminal, that she didn't want any more Treatment. I was like, wow, what am I doing? Like, I really need to be present for her. Like, so I stopped going out drinking and partying so much. And then I started waking up like, oh, I don't have a hangover. Amazing. And the. There was also this responsibility that I said to her, you know, I'm going to live my life for the both of us now. And so, yeah, as I started kind of moving away from the drugs, the drinking alcohol, and started moving more towards actually getting myself better and, you know, entering into a loving relationship and, and all of these things kind of start settling, you know, all of the commotion and the dust that had been uplifted throughout my teens started settling. And actually as I became happier and as I grew older and with being a woman, you know, my body was changing and what I found really difficult was the fact that I was, I was, you know, developing as a woman and I felt like I needed to stay the same kind of petite 17 year old frame. And I felt like that was expected of me. So as the years went on, it was much harder to maintain that small body frame. And so I can see that there was a period of time where I probably could have been diagnosed with orthorexia because I was, I mean, I was vegan. I was fasting 16 hours a day. I was doing about 4 gym classes a day. I was running 5k pretty much every day. It was like clean living, but to the extreme. And so, I mean, of course I was also very small at that point. And then it was when, then lockdown happened and because I couldn't go to all of my exercise classes and I rediscovered carbs. Oh, my God. Oh, bless her. She would spend previous Ursula like a little gremlin squatting in front of the cereal cupboard, just like eating handfuls of granola, like, oh my goodness, carbs. And. And so I started gaining weight and you know, to begin with, it was horrible. Yeah, My poor boyfriend at the time, he just, it was all that he ever heard was me berating. I think that's the word I was looking for. Berating. Berating. Yeah. Yeah. I think I said grating. Grating still

James Mayer: 1:35:10

made sense to me though. Okay. I was thinking you grating yourself with like.

Ursula Griffiths: 1:35:14

Yeah, maybe. So both work great. So berating. I do make words up as I go along. I made a word up the

James Mayer: 1:35:21

other and I actually posted it on Instagram on the end of an online samba. I remember relaxating, relaxating, Said it with conviction. And then as soon as it left my mouth, I went, that's not a word.

Ursula Griffiths: 1:35:31

I thought, totally something. I start making these words, if they make sense, they're words. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm all for creating new words. So, yeah, so he. He would just get me constantly, oh, I'm so fat, I'm so this and blah, blah. But then slowly, actually, I really started to enjoy feeling like a woman and settling in to actually having a bit more, like, just being physically more here because there was more of me here. And that was kind of started a journey of being much more grounded in my body. And, you know, I could talk on this concept of escapism and seeing it in all the many different ways in my life, how I've tried to escape from my body, my reality. And I've done that through drugs, alcohol, literally running away, suicide attempts, you know, all of these different things trying to get out of my body. But then also, you know, I've done that through spirituality. You know, I. I think, wow, I've done quite a bit of spiritual bypassing and, you know, even with, like, psychedelics and, you know, having something, you know, feeling like there's something external or wanting to get some. Somewhere feeling like there's somewhere to get to. Loads of breath, work, even yoga, you know, I have to really cheque myself. Why am I practising, like, because it shouldn't be to get somewhere, it shouldn't be to change how I'm feeling. It should be just to bring myself into this present moment in my body, to dive in and to dive into the discomfort that may or may not be there. So, yeah, that, that was kind of part of this. This process of being more grounded in my body, being more present in the here and now. And. Yeah, still, still working on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Mayer: 1:37:55

And when you say about the storey of you losing your friend, what places did that take you to? And when we reflect on things, in hindsight, I think we touched on briefly before we started recording, but how did that part of that storey, which obviously was not an easy one, how does that show up in your life today? Jenny,

Ursula Griffiths: 1:38:24

you know, I feel her with me so often have these magical little Jenny moments. And I had one recently, actually, so her middle name was Rose. And in many beautiful ways over the years, in very unique, unique, very serendipitous ways, roses have kind of showed up in my life. But anyway, Rose was her middle name and her last name was Madchen. And I was walking past a house the other day and, well, it was a block of flats, actually. And on the. On the road, on the pavement, there was There was a rose there and. And I picked up the yellow rose. Didn't really think anything of it, but I picked it up and I put it on the wall. And the name of the flats was her last name. Oh, hello. So, I mean, that's. There's so many little moments. Yeah, yeah. When they happen

James Mayer: 1:39:41

to me because I truly live my life in this way. And when you see those moments and they happen, it is so undeniable that I put it down to, like, that's a. That's a lottery win. Yeah. The odds of that is a lot, when I've said this before, but there was a moment where my journey of believing in something was just growing at a rate where I was like, right, this is undeniable. I would see white feathers everywhere. I was like, logically, if I'm looking down, feathers are going to be on the floor. Xyz. Just really putting the logic mind to these signs and things that were happening. I remember I was walking and I said, right, if this is real, if I'm truly to go down this path, by the time I get to that crossing, which is about 40 metres down the road, put a white feather on the floor there at the crossing, I'm walking up. So stupid. What I'm thinking, what, you know, all these thoughts going on. You might got the boom. White feather. I was right. Right. That's it. Don't need to see anything ever again. Like, I'm, I'm. I'm with it. I understand now. And when you are open to those signs and you see things in that beautiful way, it's so undeniable because that's one of probably a thousand that you've had as well. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean,

Ursula Griffiths: 1:40:54

she really just was phenomenal. I don't know where she. She plucked this wisdom from, but it came from somewhere that just feels so true. And, you know, she'd say things to me like, ursula, don't worry, I'm not really gonna go anywhere. I'm just gonna exist in a different way. And she'll be like, you'll know. I'll come to you and you'll know. You'll know it's me. And I never once saw her cry and I know that she did, but she was always so unbelievably brave and, you know, she was the one consoling me and I thought, what on earth this should be the other way around. And the. Her humour, she was so funny in such a. You know, in face of such a dire, scary. Just so. Yeah, Sad. So sad. Such A sad time. But she was so funny. She just knew how to make everyone laugh. Phenomenal. And yeah, she, she, she made kind of group of friends. We all had a ring that said fly on little Wings and she had a feather tattooed on her arm and underneath it was the initials of the four friends with her at that time. And our initials spelt pure. Just so perfect. So she had this feather and pure underneath. And yeah, I remember, you know, her mum told me a storey. So she, she wanted her mum to have kind of something to focus on after she had passed. And so her mum had bought a camper van and on Instagram there were three kind of main van pages that they loved. And this was some time after, after Jenny had passed and her mum had gone to this festival of camper vans where all campervans gathered together. And so she's shown into her camper van spot and she opens up the door and lo and behold, those exact. Out of thousands of vans, those three, Those three same people that they'd followed and loved were all lined up next to her and she got talking to the couple in the van next to them and they'd bought the van for the same reason because they'd lost a child. Wow. You know, and things how, you know, how could you put that together? Another thing, I still have this feather. I'm quite a neat and tidy person and I've always been that way. And I was going to bed and the door to my bedroom is closed and at the time I had an en suite, so, you know, I knew that I hadn't left the room to go to the bathroom throughout the night. The windows are closed, there's nothing, you know, no openings in the room and everything is just where it's supposed to be, as it is. Very neat. And I wake up in the morning and there is this beautiful multicoloured feather on the floor just right in the middle of the carpet. How the hell has that got in there? Like, nobody's come in. I've not gone out. There's no, you know, I go to bed rooms as it is. And then I wake up and that feather's there. Beautiful multicoloured feather. The. You know, a week after Jenny had passed and I was. She said, also, I'm going to turn lights on and off. Happened so much. And I was walking past Waitrose and I look over and this sign of Waitrose Wait has gone out and it's just Rose. And I swear to God, there was this fuzz, the fuzz. I felt the fuzz in the air. And I just laughed. And, you know, although I was so heartbroken by her passing, she. You know, every time that I've got upset and I've cried, I would hear a little voice say, ursula, why are you crying? Why? Like, there's no need to cry. And, you know, she would. It would be. She would say it in this, like, in the jokey, humorous way that, you know, she'd always been. And it's just given me so much strength and comfort in the face of death. And again, it's, you know, these two truths that are polar opposite, simultaneously existing in one sense. Yeah. Losing someone is so heartbreaking, but at the same time, I feel. It kind of doesn't have to be. Not that it doesn't have to be. It will always be heartbreaking. Absolutely. And I will gladly have my heart ripped open because, you know, wow, that just shows how much I've loved that person. Like, yeah, come on, rip my heart right open. Thank you for that pain and for that love. You know, the two are just inseparable. And there we go. Two truths happening simultaneously, the love and the pain. You know, they go hand in hand. But, yeah, it's. This is the kind of trip of life, how these two truths can happen simultaneously. And it's not that one is true. More true or less true than the other. So, you know, when I think of Jenny, I. Yeah, it's both. It's both immense sadness and also just joy and kind of like resting somewhere in the middle of that. And when I think of my own death, like, I'm kind of looking forward to it in a weird and wonderful way, but also I'm terrified. You know, I'm like, yeah, okay. Like, you know, it's gonna happen, and. And it will. It'll be fine. Well, when I'm, you know, whatever. When I'm dead or, you know. Yeah. Kind of anticipating the death of. Of my parents or whoever I love in my life, it's really scary. But, you know, in the same time, there's kind of like a. There's a certain level of peace with that. Yeah. And it feels weird to say. And also, you know, I'm only speaking from the experience that I've had with Jenny that was unique. Each time you lose somebody, it's going to be unique because your relationship is different and you're a different person each time in different circumstances. So, you know, I can't say how I'm gonna react, but I do feel like there is a certain level of. I feel a certain level of peace when it comes to the idea of death, my own death and the death of loved ones in my life. Yeah, it's such a thing. Something that's been on

James Mayer: 1:48:54

my mind. There's a lot that we're talking about. It's been on my mind recently. We often avoid these conversations of death because exactly what you said. There's a fear attached to it. It's the unknown. No one has also figured out what living is. We're all in this thing, and no one has the end answer to, oh, this is what you're doing here. We have our paths and beliefs and experiences and signs that make us think that, oh, it's this thing. And that's very much how I perceive life, that there is something. And maybe we come around and do it again in different ways and multiple lessons. And there's so many things that I'm open to of what this thing is. We rarely talk about that moment. And I think when I went through something similar in 2011, I lost my partner. I've spoke about it on the podcast quite a few times. I was thinking recently as I lost my grandma last year, when you're present for somebody passing away, it's one of the biggest gifts you can have in life. There is no more powerful moment. I've had it three times in my life. One with my partner, one with my dog, who is like my first son, and my grandma recently. And the moment is never easy. And I drew from the experience of prior and I was 24 at that time. I was last year 39 when my grandma passed away. It's quite a gap, but the experience of first time around, I knew kind of like how to guide and what to say. And you kind of put yourself in the position of, if this was me, what would I be kind of hoping to hear in these moments? And I think death is such a. If you get to a point where you are passing away and there is people around you, I think there's part of us that wants to remain for the person that's in front of us. It's the permission from that person to let go into the next space that is the most powerful moment. And I think it's something we should talk about a lot more because so many people. I witnessed it with my dad. I knew when my grandma was passing away. Luckily we made it to the care home. I knew he wasn't going to be great in that moment, and rightly so. It's his. It's his mum. I knew I was going to have to fill that space of Being the person to guide. And my dad left the room and just as my uncle. I was with my grandma and I was speaking to her, you know, saying things that I said in the past, but with more understanding of life and a bit more conviction of my beliefs. And I think even holding space as, you know, for people in the sessions that you do, just really holding space for the moment and guiding. My uncle stepped in and as he said, can I sit there? And I said, yeah, sure. And I got up and he sat down and she passed away. And I think in those moments, if we had more open conversation of how to hold space for people, whether it's a yoga class, a sambath, conversation like this in the passing of somebody is the most difficult experience you will experience in your life, but it is also the most beautiful. That moment when I first lost my partner and I watched her go was a heart wrenching. But, oh, I just saw God. I just saw God. There was a smile on her face as she passed. There wasn't as she was passing, but as she passed, there was. Now again, the logical mind goes, well, chemicals are released in the brain that make you feel good when you pass in. And that's why she would have smiled. Yeah. But there was a. That was a spiritual moment for me. So there was something in that that I have to take. And then the signs and everything. I came across a picture last week going into an old photo editing app that had not been into for years. Oh, let me see what that filter looks like on this. This image. I was like, wow, this image is in here that I edited years and years ago. And again, there's one from the computer shop. I'd taken apart a laptop to fix. And as I'd taken like the. The lid to get to like the motherboard, there was a white feather in there. I was like, wow, I forgot about that. And I would have taken a picture to remember it. I remember I was in the laptop or something. That's why feathering the laptop. It goes back to that thing like you said about in your room. Like, how has that got there? So many things have to happen for a white feather to end up inside a laptop. Unless someone's plotting against me. Let's make him feel like he's okay. Let's put this white on him, take a job in to be fixed. So it's all these signs. I think they're so beautiful in the loss of people. The people that we've lost are also teaching you in this realm. At the same time, the beauty of the Connection that is still there. And that's something I've really taken from those signs of comfort. The undeniable things that you said soon. You said like Waitrose. And I was like, where's this going? He said, and the weights like, out, but the rose is lit up. I'm like, this is. I've had so many of those moments. And sometimes they feel like they truly are for you. Sometimes you'll share them with people of the times. You just hold them as yours. But it is a reminder that that connection between the seen and unseen is truly there. But I think death is something we still don't have those conversations about where we're all going to do it, we're all going to do it. But also, if you ever find yourself in a space of somebody passing, how do we ease that for that person? Because it is that person that is truly going through the unknown, where the witnesses. It's difficult because we're losing somebody, but we're not at the start of the roller coaster, like, where. Where is this taking me? So I think that that's just brought that up for me in that moment, hearing you say that. But those signs and connections just make this life, like you said, the trip of life just feel a bit more like, oh, I think I'm okay. I think we're safe here. Because those signs just show you that there's something beyond whatever this is that we're doing. But I want to say thank you so much for sharing your storey. This is what it's all about for me, just seeing a human opening up conversation, feeling where connections are and how we are all connected in our storeys and how that ripples out to listeners, people watching, that they'll resonate with something in their world. And I'm so glad to be back doing this because there's so much magic and it's always. I'm always aware of time because I don't want people to feel like you show up here and you've got to fit your whole life into like an hour and a half. So there's always an open invitation. If you feel like I would have liked to have delved into this, then there's an open invitation to come back. And we can do that anytime. But thank you so much for your energy, your time and your openness and springing so many things up for me today as well. It's always magic. Remember when I said. When you said, what we going to talk about? And I said, just going to trust the conversation. And I said to you at the start. Like I said to Jack on the last episode, I've got some questions here and I've not even glanced at one of them. So I'm really trusting this process of connecting with the right people to ripple out to people who may just need to hear this today. So thank you so much for your time and your energy and I would love you to write a question in the journal with your name and today's date for the next guest to open up. How we opened up with you today, because I think it's a really nice through line of getting people thinking in a way that might not be coming from me. And there's a nice thread of energy for the next guest that sits where you are. So thank you so much for this.

Ursula Griffiths: 1:57:05

Yeah, thank you for asking me. Yeah, it was a real pleasure to sit here and talk with you and, yeah. Share all these storeys. So thank you for opening this space. Oh, you're welcome. And I

James Mayer: 1:57:16

wanted to. Wanted to ask one question, one more question. You, in your world are very grounded in the physical. Do a lot in the body, obviously, we know we're both in our minds a lot. When you've done energy work, how does that show up in your sessions? For me, in sound baths, there's a lot of stuff that I do and I can feel the energy of a room. I can feel when I can push people, when I can pull people, when people need to feel a bit more calmer. Sounds tonight, when I can push people and maybe get a bit more. I can experiment with. With things in the moment. It's really hard to contextualise that into words sometimes of what that is when. When you're in a space, holding space. But what is all the energy work helped you weave into your world and just being under. Being able to understand people from an energetic point of view as well from when they're walking into a room and you can feel someone's feeling heavy or this person's lighter and maybe how you need to deliver a session different than probably what you intended to when you showed up, because you really feel in the energy of everything around you. I think that's it. Yeah.

Ursula Griffiths: 1:58:34

It's just, as you say, it's not something that you can really give words to. It's just a feeling. A feeling? Yeah. Intuition. I think that's kind of it. And trust. Trusting that intuition. Yeah. You know, there's been so many odd moments in my life where I've just known something and I can't tell you why. I don't have any logical Rational, rational reasoning for that. I just have a feeling and I just know. And yeah, also weird things like, you know, seeing things in dreams and then they come true or having like a little daydream and seeing it happen. You know, there's one that I really remember. So silly. It's really not interesting. I remember being a little girl, I had this very, very clear image of this woman crossing a road. And I remember when it happened and I saw it in to a T. It was just so picture perfect from how I'd seen it in my mind. This like flash image. I was like, that's it. I've seen that before. So the. Yeah, so I'd say the. I think actually children are very intuitive, so I don't think that, you know, I could feel this kind of like resistance in me when you are talking about energy work. Because I don't want to feel like I'm doing anything. Kind of like. Yeah, this is the

James Mayer: 2:00:26

danger that people go into when we explore these things. Like, I'm the healer now. Yeah. I have these powers. We're only ever a channel. Whether, you know, you in a yoga session. Yeah, you've learned stuff, you know how to deliver it. But at the same time, there's something that, that you said, the unknown of you knowing what that space needs intuitively. You are, you are a channel and a guide in that moment. But I think the danger, and we've probably all felt it a little bit, it feels nice when we start new things and, oh, I do this new thing now. Look at, look at like, we, we. We like it. But I think when you become maybe further into the practise of different things, you can really observe when somebody is at the start of a journey. Because it's shiny, it's the bells and whistles. Like, these things feel good when, when you've spent time learning things, doing things. But I think, yeah, it's also observing the, the danger of feeling like you are super in some way. Yeah. It's not at the same time, your journey, you, your magic, everything that is created. The person that sits in front of me is very special. It is very unique. It is individual. So in a way, there is the own. There is only one version of you that can show up in that space and do what you do. Someone can go to another session and, yeah, they might get similar poses or. But they're not getting you and what you're about. I have conflicting thoughts as a flow and conflicting. So I think it's a beautiful way to kind of like, look at Life as well. But I think there is also a danger, like you said, like it's, it's not me and, and my superpowers when it comes to energy work because I, I definitely have that resistance that you're talking about as well. Yeah, I think it's really just

Ursula Griffiths: 2:02:06

developing a sensitivity and, and being open and trying not to get too much in my own way. Trying not to intellectualise it. And that's why perfectionism can be so just kind of terrible at dampening the realness of a moment coming through because. Yeah, by kind of taking a little step back and not letting the mind get too involved. Connecting more to the feeling, body being like, yeah, what do I feel needs to happen right now? And yeah, it's just intuition. It's a sense, a feeling. And we all have that. Yeah, that, that isn't anything new or special. But I think it can definitely be developed also by trusting it. By listening to the little voice more often. Or not even the little voice, but that feeling, it's a feeling in the body of being like, that needs to happen now. Okay, that's what I'm gonna do. Yeah, this person needs this right now. Or, you know, whatever that might be. So, yeah, kind of getting out of your own way and being open and curious. Word of the moment to what's presenting itself, not what you think needs to happen. And coming back to what I've learned through vipassana, be with the reality as it is and allowing that to be this ever changing, ever. And for holding, moving, transforming thing.

James Mayer: 2:04:10

Yeah, trusting that intuition. I've. In sambas, I'll be moving through the space and as I'm approaching a person like, oh, this person needs more. And it's just a voice, this person needs more. And I spend maybe an extra 10, 20 seconds with that person as I'm moving the instruments around. They're not going to confirm that to me. But there's a voice that pops up. It's not for everyone, it's not getting here, but it's maybe like two or three people in a session. This person needs this. And I'll spend a bit more time there and just really feel into and trust that voice as well. Because I think that the trusting of the voice helps strengthen it later when it arrives. Because something that's there and it is really hard to put it into words. What it is, it's a, it's a feeling, it's a, it's, it's just something that is there. I'll. I'll maybe rehearse for a session might warm up on Hampan, like, a couple of days before. I'm like, oh, I'll play this pattern when I get there. Doesn't happen, because the room. The room's not asking for that. It's. It's. It's something else that needs to happen in the space. And I think that's where the magic lies in that energy, the unseen and trusting that. And that is energy work. Really listening to that. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing answer is so beautiful.

Ursula Griffiths: 2:05:31

Thank you so much. I want to say thank you so much again for this

James Mayer: 2:05:35

and your time and anywhere anyone can find you. I'll link it all in there in the notes below. Fantastic. And there's always an invitation to come and do this again. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much. Sam.